242. Love and Alcohol with Dr. Chavonne Part 2 of 3

Unknown: 1:27

Hey welcome back to the show my beautiful listeners,

Mary Wagstaff: 1:34

thank you so much for being here for another episode of stop drinking and start living. And if you're new to the show, welcome, you are in the right place. This is a comfy little cozy circle, and you are in for such a treat today. This is kind of the first of its kind. I'm having one of my own personal coaches who knows my story on the show to share her expertise with us. And of course, you will all end up hearing a little bit probably more about my relationship

Unknown: 2:00

in light of this. So welcome to the show. Dr. Shavon. Thank you so much for having me, Mary. I'm honestly so delighted to be here.

Mary Wagstaff: 2:10

Yeah, it's so awesome to have you Dr. Shavon has supported Matthew and I through our relationship, really through a really pivotal time in our lives. So I did want you just if you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself a little bit and kind of the the depths of the work that you do in the world.

Unknown: 2:28

Oh my gosh, where do you even start with that, right. So if you were to look up like my instagram or go on my website, you would see that I'm a life and marriage coach. And that basically, my goal is to help couples communicate better, to feel more close. And to really enjoy their relationship more, I think, talking to anyone, that's the whole point of being partnered is to enjoy each other to give love to receive love. And many times when that's not happening, people will identify like communication as the thing that's standing in the way. So I lead with that a lot. But no, right, like doing this work, it's so much more than that, right? So any words that are coming out of your mouth, any ways you're interacting with your partner, have more to do with so many deep layers of you. And so we do a lot of inner work, we do a lot of connecting the dots from our childhood and the ways that we've been conditioned and the ways that we've adapted to situations in childhood and what that looks like in terms of our coping behaviors, which I know is so relevant to this topic and how that shows up in our interactions. And so it's sort of like we have the goal of like, yes, we want the great communication. Yes, we want to feel close, yes, we want to enjoy each other. But this is the pathway to getting there. And so we do we do some of that deep work to really help people not only have like the surface level change that they want, but like the internal shifts that create the really transformed relationship that they're looking for.

Mary Wagstaff: 4:08

Yeah, oh, it's such good work. And it's like, I just have to say, Dr. Shavon, you got to check her out. And she has a podcast as well. But you know, your approach is so disarming to where it's like we don't have to it's like the biggest thing, right? Our relationships, because it's a reflection of each other how we spend our days and the people we share space with. But we can also be light about it and like not take it that seriously. And I think that's that is kind of a little bit of the paradox. Sometimes with coaching. It's like, we can't take our thoughts that seriously because we have so many of them. Right?

Unknown: 4:45

And it's like it for many of us. This is scary work, right? It feels scary to like, go inside your brain, understand what you're thinking, why you're thinking it, then come up with different behaviors you want to enact and like following through on that. And so, yes, my approach is very dynamic. And yes, as Mary said, I have a podcast and and Matthew are actually on the podcast if you want like that scoop as well. But he said, right, like he said, Thank you for making this fun. And I never forgot that, because that has always been my intention. It is just part of my personality. And I don't like to do anything, whether it's easy or challenging if there's not an element of fun and lightness and not taking it too seriously, and also having so much deep compassion for like, how you've gotten into wherever you've gotten. So

Mary Wagstaff: 5:43

yeah, absolutely. Like it's your story. And we get to just kind of examine it and rewrite it. And so I think this is it's a good segue because one of the things that I talk to people about when it comes to changing their relationship with alcohol, obviously, I'm working one on one with women. I'm not working dynamically with partners, and we're going to kind of explore a few different scenarios today with Dr. shabam because alcohol shows up in just such different dynamic ways. But the first thing that I tell people is you can't really make this change together with someone else. Well, at least you have to go in now. There's and I want to I kind of want to take have your take on that. If you want to make this change, expecting someone else to kind of make the work easier, is going to set yourself up for really for failure because you have two different brains. Now this could come to your spouse, or even kind of like a buddy system. Now I knew I do know, like, group support things that the program with Dr. Shavon is in a group setting. And it's really, it is inspiring to see other people in the way they're doing it. And you're you know, you're not, it's not like just you that has these problems, right. So what do you say about that about creating, change, and, and starting,

Unknown: 7:07

yeah, and partnership, right change in a partnership. So it's so interesting, I think it's, it is, and we see this inside the program as well. But anything in your life, you can sign up together for. And yet, it's still your own individual journey. And as soon as you started saying that, I thought about, gosh, probably 20 years ago, my best friend, and I signed up to do a half marathon. And we were like, so gung ho about it. And we had this plan of training, and I kept to it, and she didn't, and then you know, on the day of the race, we just decided, like, run your own race, like, I'm going to be a part of this, but like, run your own race, and we'll meet where we meet. And so I think a lot of times, when it comes to making any change in your life, and certainly alcohol is no different, that the things that brought you to that place, are all different, right? Like, each of you has a different set of experiences, a different set of, you know, just like tendencies and all the things. And so you can have a partner that might be on board, right. And again, we see this in the program, where both of them have signed up to like work on their marriage together. And some days, one person is there 100% For the topic. And other days, the other person is like, in their old habits. And that is all okay. And I think the more you allow greater flexibility in the belief that like, okay, at the end of the day, we both want the same thing. We want to be happy, we want to be fulfilled, we want to feel healthy, we want to feel aligned with like, who we want to be in the world. And my way of getting there and my timeline to getting there may not look exactly the same as my partner's.

Mary Wagstaff: 9:07

Yeah. So well, I just love like the motto run your own race. It's so good, right? Because you're a I mean, even in that, that metaphor, right? It was like real life, right? But in that metaphor, there's other people there training to inspire you and do the thing. And if you know, you do have a conscious relating partner who's willing to have a conversation, and this is kind of another topic, um, you can set you know, the, the standards or the expectations, and there could be something agreed upon inside of that, right. Like, so I'll just kind of give a little example to Matthew and I, we and this, this is kind of leading into a little bit more about what I wanted to talk about how alcohol can play a pretty big role in the development of a relationship, oftentimes, right, where it's like, Footloose, and fancy free, and you're out having drinks, and everything's so fun. And as the dynamic changes, alcohol can start to play not as much fun of a role, and it can create habits and lifestyle that maybe you're not choosing. And then at that point, it's a habit and alcohol is addictive. And so the changes can be more challenging to make. And I don't know how much you know about my work. But I definitely I don't really run off a lot of the traditional models of kind of sobriety and recovery, that there's like normal drinking, and like troubled drinking, that it really is a spectrum. And it's a it's a really individual choice of how it's impacting you as a person, so on and so forth. So with Matthew and I, we kind of had started like that, where we it was Footloose, and fancy free. But you know, it was it was pretty heavy partying, and then as we have more responsibilities, and then of course, had a baby, we were realizing this is not the dynamic of the lifestyle that we want to choose. And we had tried to quit many times together. And it wasn't until we decided to run our own race, that we could support each other, like from a distance, but it did take a real conscious, a really conscious decision. And also the awareness of seeing like why that didn't work. Why that piece of essentially enabling right it's like and I think that's even how been in the program. And one of the things that we had coached on a couple of call last call, I think, was you had said, asking the question, Where am I using my spouse as a crutch for not doing my work? So that's just kind of to, to, like,

Unknown: 11:44

add so much. And like, gosh, that's such a,

Mary Wagstaff: 11:48

it's such a good question, right? So for anyone that's listening, that's in this dynamic conversation that is, is having the conversation with their partner or not, but does if you're listening to this, you obviously want to create change in your life around alcohol. And so you can just ask yourself that question, Where am I using my partner as a crutch for not doing my own work? And I think that a lot of times people do think if the circumstance changed, it would be easier. But tell me what you know about that. Yeah.

Unknown: 12:23

Listen, there are times when Yes, circumstantially things feel easier, right. But it is really the interplay of like the circumstances and the mindset that you adopt, to create an experience of greater ease for yourself. And I think that's really important. One of the things I'm so like, on teaching people is tolerating negative emotion, right. And I think this is a really good example of that of like, when we go to the gym, or when we go to work out, or when we go to the doctor's office, like, it is a physically uncomfortable experience for our bodies, yet, we have a certain mindset that enables us to tolerate it that enables us to go through that experience, and not break all the way down. 90% of us, right? So it's not the circumstance, right, you're in a experience that is putting your body through physical harm and pain, right. And yet, when it comes to emotional experiences, we really attach ourselves to things needing to look a certain way, or be a certain way, in order for our emotions to be good or positive. And I think that when you develop the capacity to just have tolerance for experiencing a negative emotion, and not take action to try to control a situation or make a situation or use a situation not changing as the reason to stay in a negative emotional state, then like, you really are doing yourself a disservice. And so, yes, I am of the mindset that yes, certain circumstances do 100% make things easier, but all circumstances are temporary, right? And so you never want to rely 100% on something needing to be a certain way, in order for you to be able to move yourself forward or make the progress that you need, that's ultimately going to create emotional wellbeing for you.

Mary Wagstaff: 14:33

Yeah, yeah. So well said. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, and that's why this mock this approach to changing one's relationship with alcohol is really about the intersection between behavior and belief, belief, because of the cultural experience, as well of like how prolific it is, in our culture, runs so deep, like, there is a lot to unpack there. But if you go around, just trying to change the circumstance, you are going to exhaust yourself, and you're never going to be able to go anywhere.

Unknown: 15:09

You're never when it comes to alcohol,

Mary Wagstaff: 15:11

you're never gonna be able to go anywhere, if like, if it's if it's really about the circumstance. And so I think it's about like Brooke Castillo says, you know, you if you leave you take your mind with you. So get to yourself to a good place first, and then make the decision like, No, you have your own back, and then be able to make the decision. And I love the metaphor too about, like, we go to the gym, we go to the dentist, we go to the doctor, and we are experiencing discomfort, because we've already told ourselves that the result is like worth it. Right? And so I tell people all the time, if you go to yoga, what do you do in a pose a yoga pose, you do not hold your breath, right? You breathe, and you stretch, right? And you literally expand your capacity to be able to be in a new shaft, a new physical shape, and your body right? And we it's just the way we've associated emotions in our lives. And in being comfortable with different sensations in our body, but it really is virtually the exact same thing even when it comes to physical like pain, right, like getting hurt, or, you know, I mean, that's that's intense work, too. But yeah, it's It's a real thing and, and the behavior part of it, and I will, like alcohol is no joke, it definitely creates a physical and emotional urges on top of that. But what I've seen through this work and through my own firsthand experience is that the beliefs run, run really deep. And those create more of the cravings and the urges and the discomfort than the chemical itself, the chemical itself, you can pretty balance out pretty quickly. You know, obviously, there's lots of different circumstances around that. But, so. So yeah, I think that that's, that's awesome. So one of the things I would like to kind of switch to is when you do get to that point. So say that you are deciding, like you're in a relationship, and both people are drinking in their relationship. And that's just kind of how you've always done things. And then you decide for yourself, I don't like the effects that this is having on me, I work with a lot of women who are just kind of starting to go through like, another threshold of change in their life, like pre menopause kind of stuff like that. And they're they're maturing, like alcohol is just not really fitting into their lifestyle anymore. And it's challenging to change. And, and so you get yourself to that place. But on the other side of it, you have this spouse who is. So there's a few ways that this goes. So let me just ask you a few different scenarios. One, the person completely rebels, this happens all the time I see this where the person goes the other direction, and they like their drinking half goes even deeper, because now they've just like lost their drinking, buddy. What do you do?

Unknown: 18:17

Ah, yeah, I mean, so when they're completely rebelling, right? You have to take that for what it is. And whenever I'm working with clients, no matter what, when they're now unhappy with something that their partner is doing, the question I always ask is, where are they doing this in the beginning, right. And that is just data that you want to have. So if you have now changed the rules of engagement, you've changed the way you operate as a couple for great and amazing and wonderful reasons for your own growth, right? We love that we want to support that growth and transition for you. But if your partner is not there yet, the the growth for you in being able to tolerate that or experience greater peace, and that is accepting that they aren't there yet. Yeah. And recognizing that, like, if you're changing the rules of engagement for what this relationship looks like, there is an adjustment period, right now, sometimes you may hit, hit it right on the head, and both of you are like, okay, we're both ready to change, or I support you and your change. And I'm gonna like, modify my behavior so that you don't have to see this or be exposed to this as much all the time, right? If they want to continue drinking, but there is like a renormalization, that needs to take place. And you need to kind of see it as such. And in that process, also decide for yourself, if I'm changing a major component of this relationship, and my partner is not yet ready. What do I want to do about that? Right, and I think you have to be a little bit unattached, that's going to help you create a more peaceful experience for yourself. Because if they're now rebelling, and coping the way the way that they know how to cope, right, then you just have to look at that for what it is, it is not something that you even really need to be upset about. It's just a data point, I love to look at dynamics in a relationship and how each person is showing up as a data point. And then you get to evaluate, does this work for me, and I think the mistake that a lot of people get into is like when it doesn't work for you, you spend a lot of time and energy trying to change the circumstance of your partner, you know, trying to get them on board with it, trying to get them to understand trying to get them to see the benefits. And yes, there's time and space for that. But you want to share what's working for you and your own journey from a place of non attachment. Meaning they don't have to get it they don't have to change at the end of that conversation, but that you're just showing up fully and authentically as you are now in this current state.

Mary Wagstaff: 21:20

Yeah, yeah. And I think looking at giving time for an adjustment period, you know, transitions, that's something that I taught Like I've been talking about even more is we have big transitions. And we have little transitions every single day, right? Going from your work day. As a coach to being Mom, there's this transition. And often transitions are when people drink, right? They were kind of it's like that recalibration that we're getting used to just like going from the heat to the cold. And I think becoming aware of bigger shifts and bigger dynamics and yes, allotting time and patience for that is going to create an energy, that's gonna be so much more inviting as well. Because when there's that push, pull, that often we see it with children, right? It's like, don't tell me what to do. I'm grown, I want to do what I want to do. I don't, you know, have a problem. Like, this was your choice, you know, it could show up in many ways. And I've seen that happen, and that being able to witness that person going through, like, their, you know, yeah, having this big shift is creating an awareness for them. Because especially when it comes to alcohol can be very confronting it is for a lot of relationships, even friendship groups. It's like, oh, we're reflections of one another in so many ways. It's like, oh, you're not drinking anymore? Well, what does that mean about me? Right? So when that person has to kind of look at themselves, and in that dynamic, then yeah, sometimes they they're not ready, and they often go the other way. What, what do you think about the difference between creating boundaries or standards? And we could talk a little bit about the level 10, self, and ultimatums? Because I do think, especially in this kind of dynamic, where, you know, people's personalities do change and can change pretty quickly, even from a small amount of alcohol, like the energy does shift. How would you suggest if someone is in that they've made the change they are confident with where they are, they're still going through their process, but the other person's just not really ready to look at that. What would you suggest someone like do to really just like being able to still maintain their own protection their own boundaries?

Unknown: 23:56

Yeah, that's a great question. So right, we remember that boundaries are things that you do to protect yourself. So they're not about the other person, they still have freewill. They're agents of their own choices. And so when it comes to that, and I've coached a few clients on this where one partner over drinks, and it's like, you have to set up for yourself your own rules of what's okay for you, and what's not okay for you in a way that is not judgmental, or in any way, intentionally penalizes the other person, right. So for example, I had one client, I can think of specifically a couple, where whenever they would go out socially, if the husband, and this was the dynamic, if the husband drink too much, the wife would just go home, she would just make arrangements for herself because she did not enjoy being around him at that level, and instead of stewing in the corner, upset that he continues to drink, the decision that she made was that what was best for her, rather than continuing to expose herself to emotional upset, was to remove herself from the situation. And I think that those are options that you have to now is their discomfort that comes along with that 100%. Right, you have to be willing to make the emotional exchange, right? Because exposing yourself to a situation that is uncomfortable due to the level of drinking that your partner is engaging in, versus setting a boundary so that you're not exposing yourself to it. That's not an easy thing to do. It's really trading one set of emotional discomfort for another set of emotional discomfort. But being conscious of that choice of like, I'd rather feel this way, right. I felt rather feel a little awkward leaving the party early than saying something that's going to judge my partner make us even more disconnected, etc. So again, the boundaries are all about you, I think to your question of ultimatums. It's, it's interesting because I am not a fan of ultimatums. But I do think that there are some boundaries that skew the line of being an ultimatum and I think it's more the way that I like to think about it is that This is my choice. Right? So if you're in a relationship, where really you know that remaining with this particular person, at their level of drinking is just not healthy for you, and it's not the relationship that you want to be in, then that gets communicated as this is not right for me, right? Not like, if you don't change, I'm going to leave. That's the ultimatum language versus this is not right. For me, I can no longer be a part of this, participate in this remain in this situation. And that is, again, just you putting up a protective bubble for yourself for what you allow yourself to be exposed to or engage in, it has nothing to do it's no judgment, no criticism, no sort of controlling of the other person. It's just this is the decision I've made. And I don't want to, like, negate how difficult those conversations and arriving at a place like that can be because it's incredibly difficult. It's incredibly difficult. But it is also very self honoring. And again, I think that's the exchange that a lot of times feels really hard to make, because there's so many consequences. So that's, that's my take on boundaries, and ultimatums well, and

Mary Wagstaff: 27:58

one of the things we talked about in the program were non negotiables. Right to for for yourself, like, and there's, you know, there's kind of a spectrum of, you know, if you don't take, if I have to tell you to take out the garbage every week, or ask you to take out the garbage every week and remind you and you said that was the thing you were going to do is a little bit different than, you know, you turn into an asshole every time we go out. Right? And so it's like, the non negotiables. For me, if you are drinking, whatever it is, like, even if you're drinking at all, I just don't want to be hanging out with you. Right. And so, so I think it's good to look at that spectrum of for me, and so everyone, like this work is about personal responsibility. 100% all of the time. And yeah, it's challenging because we walk our natural inclination as humans is to defend right to defend our point, because we're the center of our universe. And we are always right. You know, and yeah, and there was a point that I was going to make Oh, so I think also coming to terms with knowing there are people that I've worked with, where they're like, I'm not leaving this relationship, like, I know that I'm going to be leaving this relationship. So where, you know, and one of the first things I would say is to take yourself to the place when something we do is called the marriage check in where we look first at what is working. And so if you know you're not going to leave a relationship, how do you stay? Because this subjects can really overshadow right. It's like, that person starts to have a drink. And you're like, watching Yeah, right. Yeah, just like, and then the place where you just were, and I think like, if you were drinking and you're watching them, like you could kick into some empathy a little bit. But somehow people lose that they forget. They're like, oh, like, how can you not see this? Right? So anyway, you, you're not leaving the relationship? How do you stay happy?

Unknown: 30:17

Yeah, listen, I love this. I was just in a group. And someone had asked this question. And here's my direct, very direct, and empowering and life changing perspective on it. So the first thing if your mindset is, I can't leave this relationship. She let's just check in with that. Right? Like you can do anything if you really desire to. So you want to like pass the litmus test of do I have some limiting belief that makes me believe I literally can't leave this relationship, which I would challenge all day every day, right? Then I don't want to leave this relationship. Right, then you get there potentially. So it's, I don't want to leave this relationship. I'm not going to leave this relationship. We have to recognize that in that shift. There is choice there, that your choice is to stay. And then if your choice is to stay, given the circumstances given the reality of that relationship, you get to own that It's literally like you are resigning up for it for as long as you choose to stay. Now, granted, maybe you started the relationship you both drank. And it was you were signing up for something that felt 100% aligned. Or maybe you didn't know your partner's drinking was as heavy as it is right, and now you're moving out of it, and they're staying in it, or they're deepening into it even more, right. Either way, once you recognize that, like I've decided to stay, you get to own that choice. And this is the concept of, when you own your choice, it abdicates your partner from responsibility for changing or doing anything differently to make you feel better about staying. This is hard to hear. It's really hard to hear. But it is so liberating, to know that this person has shown me fully who they are fully where they are fully what they're going to continue to do. And I've said yes to that. And when I say yes to that, that is my choice. And let me just be, like, transparent, I don't ever shame anyone, for making a decision to stay in a relationship that they know is not really what they want, we have a lot of different reasons. And so in the process of owning your decision, you have to look at the reasons of why you stay. Because those are the reasons that matter more to you, than the fact that you're with a partner that is drinking at a level or the relationship with alcohol within your home is not what you want it to be. Right every decision in our brains, we're just weighing the reason I want this is more important than the reason I don't. And so that's the operating system that's going on in your mind. And you just want to tap into that. For many people, it's I want to keep our family together. honor that. Steep yourself, and like marinate in that desire, as much as you can. Because then you'll recognize Well, I'm getting what I want the most here and what I want the most is for my family to stay together. And with that, then I don't have to get all upset at my partner, I don't have to try to convince them to do something differently. So I can feel better about staying, I own my decision to stay. And I look at the reasons that I love for why I am staying.

Mary Wagstaff: 34:05

Yes, I'm like snaps all around that I just got so many chills because that is so like, it's such a great way to detach, and know that you're getting what you want, right within What's with it, what's in your control. And, and be able to focus on something that feels really good, too, right? If it's like, yeah, of course, people are in relationships for so many reasons, if it's like, because I don't have to worry about finances, right and this person. And you know, I think that there there's like, ways to take your brain to about to like what is working this person has this thing going on that I think is a problem. Maybe they don't. Right. For them, it might not be a problem, even though I full well think it is. Now they might think it's a problem too. And then that's kind of a different conversation that can create a different dynamic. But you also have to take that personal responsibility to to say like, this is my opinion about their behavior, right that, like I can also change that, that it's maybe not a problem, like why is it even a problem in the first place? And I

Unknown: 35:21

think that's where the boundaries come in. Right? If you're a person that's good at creating and setting boundaries, then they're drinking doesn't have to be a problem meaning a lot of times where you want to distinguish between Is it because they're drinking, and I just don't like that. I don't want that in the home. I don't want it around. Or is it because when they drink, they then show up a certain way. So if it's when they drink, they then show up a certain way that if that in any way is now infringing on your personal boundaries, then that's when you get to set up the boundary to create an experience for yourself where you were not exposed to that. So that made me and like, oh, this weekend, you're going to be drinking when you drink. I know that this happens and this is how you treat me or how you speak to me and I don't like that. This is what I'm going to do for myself to protect myself from not being exposed to that level of treatment. But that is different, right? That's different than like not being in the relationship. You can set up some boundaries that protect you from harm, and then you can also make peace with your decision. decision to continue to be in a situation that creates these potential experiences where you are, you know, emotionally harmed, then it's just a different set of things. But you want to be looking at them in concert with each other because they are interrelated.

Mary Wagstaff: 36:44

Yeah. Yeah. It's so powerful and, and it's only going to deepen the work that you're doing for yourself. And I think if it's kind of the flip, and I, I've seen this before, to where one person's like, I don't, this kind of happened with Matthew and I, where he, and I'm even this is still my opinion, is that his personality very much changed. He kind of wanted to, like burn it all down, like, got weird. But I was like, No, I'm fine, right? Like, I can just like, I'm happy, I can just go to bed. I don't do any weird, weird stuff. And at that time, I wasn't really willing to examine my own relationship with alcohol, although in full well knew, I mean, I wanted to stop drinking for many, many years. And so I think, if you I personally think if you're going to have a request of a partner, regardless, regardless if it's drinking or not, I think you need to actually ask yourself to about what your relationship is, because people don't always realize that saying no to a drink actually does create resistance for me, but because I think that this behavior looks problematic, then now I'm kind of mothering them to and if it's something that's a dynamic that you do in the relationship, it could be parenting, it could be the way you show up for the household. Like, it could be any of that. And something that I've explored a lot in this coaching program with you with with Matthew is knowing what my needs are first, and like really looking at myself first and doesn't happen all the time. It's definitely a habit and a practice. Before understanding myself first, what needs do I have that aren't being met? What do I really need, when I engage with this person or ask them for something before I'm going to have this request, especially if it's something really big, or saying like, you've got a problem, you need to change? So tell me a little bit about, about what you think about that.

Unknown: 38:49

Listen, everyone hop on over to my podcast. I literally the one for this week. And I know this, this will air later. But I have a whole episode on things that bother you about your spouse, and the six things that you have to look at within yourself before you say anything to them. Okay? And that is it, though. This is the work. And I know that you are doing this work, right, where it's like, I am unhappy or frustrated or angry or triggered by something they are doing why? And most people don't pause to ask themselves, why they just look at it because they're wrong, right? Because what they're doing is not the right thing to be done. So instead of immediately trying to, again, get out of that emotion, because that's all you're doing when you attack them, or try to control them or say something to them. You're trying to get out of that emotion. You want to understand it. Why is this bothering me so much? What is this about? What is going on with me? And in my podcast episode, again, it's the things that bother you about your spouse that will take you through each one of the places that you want to look inside to find the answer, right. And it can be anything from like things, messages you received as a child that that a parts of you that weren't okay, because your parents couldn't handle it. So you learn to cut that part off. And so maybe your spouse is drinking is them being so playful and light and fun. And maybe now that you are trying to get out of drinking, maybe you're focusing more on discipline, and they're light hearted, fun bumps up against that for you. And so it feels like it's in conflict and you don't know how to allow space for both of those. There's so many so many deeper layers and levels to why you're bothered by something your spouse does, then they're wrong. And so you absolutely do have to master the skill of just pausing and asking yourself why. And going inside to figure out what is this bringing up in me that I'm having such a problem with us? Yes,

Mary Wagstaff: 40:59

we will link that episode for sure. I just have a couple more questions that are like a little bit of scenarios. If someone is blatantly being rude to you about your decision, kind of Pooh poohing it or saying like, Oh, come on, just drink like egging you on not supporting your sovereign choice. What do you do in that situation? What was the conversation you have? And I think it's a little bit of some of the stuff we've talked about. But yeah,

Unknown: 41:34

yeah, it is. And it's, it's, this is one of those things that's hard, right? It's sort of like, their comments to you or them, right. And then you get to decide how much you expose yourself to that by how often you around them. And listen, I'm saying that, that fully recognizing that this is a person you likely live with, right? You may sleep in the same bed with them, right, like, so it's not like, I'm telling you to go sequester yourself into like the basement closet and never come out and never have any interaction with them. But if you do want to place a boundary, it is saying, like, when you say these things, to me, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to walk out of the room, I'm going to go outside and take a walk. Right. And that's one thing, the boundary, which we've talked about, the other thing is just making a loving request. And you may have to make this request multiple times in multiple different ways. Hey, I honor your thoughts and opinions about it. I ask that you honor mine, and that you stop saying these things. Listen, ladies, say it how you would say it, right? Like, obviously, I'm a marriage coach, I read communication books all day, every day, say it however you would say right? If that looks like, leave me the ethylone about this, don't come back dates to talk about it anymore. Say whatever you need to say, right? But making the request in a way that honors you. Right, like you have a right to not be bombarded with these types of comments, right? And then, depending on what their response or reaction is, again, the ball is in your court, we can never make someone stop doing something. We can never do that. For as much as I wish I could just snap my fingers and create that and make that happen for you. The ultimate decision lies in your hands in terms of how often how frequently and if at all. You expose yourself to that. Yeah, yeah, boundaries are important. And the requests are important, because maybe after a while, they will get it and you get to decide how many times you make that request of them.

Mary Wagstaff: 43:57

Yeah, so good. And I just wanted to say this, because it wraps into the work your work. The way that you talk about boundaries is about the personal standard. Right. Our personal

Unknown: 44:08

Yeah, personal. Yeah. Personal standards of behavior. Yeah. So standards.

Mary Wagstaff: 44:12

And that's really what boundaries are. Right? They're your standards. And they are

Unknown: 44:19

not theirs. Yes.

Mary Wagstaff: 44:21

Boundaries, I feel like have like a little bit of this negative connotation. It's like, oh, this kind of like this person is wrong. So I have to, like put this wall up. But really, it's just the standard that you're showing up for for yourself. Like, like, I'm not like, for me, personally, I don't if Matthew continued to drink, I wouldn't be in this relationship. That is a vibration. I don't want to my house, I don't really want to be around. It's just not my vibe. Not that I can't like be in, you know, environment with it, but just on a day to day. So that would be my personal standard, right? And like I wouldn't, I had choice. I decided that from a long time ago that like, I wouldn't make it about him. Like, I wouldn't shame him or blame him or say like, you can't do this for us. Because a I know how hard it is to quit drinking, and be like, people get to decide what they want to do. And they're like, sovereign, right, like

Unknown: 45:17

100%. And I think that again, that's the hardest part. And that's what I've been saying, like, you get to choose, do I continue to stay here and that's the hardest decision for some people to make because it's like, well, I really want to stay but I just need them to stop. We don't get to control that and so if they're not willing to stop and you can't be in a situation where that is continuing to happen is on you to just make that choice for yourself. Yeah, maybe and I think like what I will say to anyone really really deeply grappling with that it's not a snap your fingers choice can be something that like mentally you know, in your mind, just like you said, Mary of like, I knew this was not going to be okay with me. I knew it was not something that I would have been able to remain and people can you can make that choice for yourself and still be there. Right? And also know that you're not going to be there. Right? Again, sort of like releases the reins and gets you out of trying to control and micromanage and get upset with someone. It's like I've already decided this is not But I want, this is not the type of partner that I want to remain with. And so again, owning that choice obligates them from needing to do anything differently. Right? They are still sovereign to they still make their own choices. And they shouldn't guilt you, right? Just like they could come at you like, Well, why can't you just ignore this? Or why can't you just accept this? You knew this when we got together, right? Like you are 100% allowed to want what you want and need, what you need, and do what you want to do. And they are too.

Mary Wagstaff: 47:01

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And there's no hierarchy. We're all on our own journeys, figuring things out. And that's such a good point, like you knew this about me, you're the one that changed me, right. And it is, it's so hard. And there's a grieving process. And that's why you have coaches, and if you to help you make it through this. And, and the other thing is if you do decide when you do decide to stay like if you're going to let if the drinking is bothering you, but then you're going to obsess about it and you're going to be putting yourself through double the pain by making it such a problem for you. So you best find something else to focus on, if you decide to stay

Unknown: 47:43

present. And I think if you're in the limbo, still the best is to find something else to focus on your own growth and evolution and betterment. Because that needs to happen regardless. Yeah, right. You need to be responsible for creating a sense of peace and harmony and happiness for yourself independent of what your partner is doing, or if you remain with that

Mary Wagstaff: 48:04

part. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited for everyone to hear this. I have one more question. If if you do want to bring up with your partner, a conscious shift about, you know, changing the dynamic of a household. How do you suggest going about something like that? If you know, I think a lot of people don't necessarily talk about vulnerable things.

Unknown: 48:31

Right? Yeah. So the principle undergirding that conversation is patience. Right? It's got to be a progressive and iterative conversation, just big words, weird words, for lots of conversations, right? So one of the structures I love to offer my clients whenever they are grappling with, like a big topic, or big decision is to have what I call listening sessions. So let's say you flag this as a conversation and finding it for conversation just means like, Hey, I've really been thinking about this, right, you can be as specific as you want. And I would love for us to start having a conversation about it, when is it a good time for you? Right, you want both of you to be available and open for the conversation, right? So you schedule some mutually agreed upon time. And what I like to do in the listening session structure is one person shares their thoughts. And that's it. There's no decision that needs to be made. There's no debating, it's just like, hey, I just want to share with you my thoughts. And this is going to be my turn in this listening session. And then a couple of days later, or a week later, however long, then the other person goes and shares their thoughts. And you may have to do that a couple of times, especially with something as big as the role of alcohol in your life. But when you are sharing, you're just sharing your perspective, your experience, what you were thinking and feeling. And when you are listening, you're just listening. You're not trying to convince the other person, it's literally like you're doing an interview, you're just taking in the data, hmm. you process the data, you come back, you share more data, you process that data, and then you share your ideas about what to do. And take a break from that conversation before you actually make the decision. You want it to feel like we have luxurious amounts of time and space. Even if it's two weeks, right? You still want it to feel luxurious, because when you are pressured and impatient, and making a decision, your ability to remain calm and grounded and emotionally regulate yourself is very low. And so you're going to argue and you're going to debate and you're going to disagree versus okay, I'm here to 100% hear you out. And you're here to 100% Hear me you out and we're just going to get all our thoughts out, and then we're going to like put it all together, we're going to look at all our options, and then we're going to decide and maybe we make a temporary decision, especially again with something as big as the relationship with alcohol. Maybe we decide for this month This is what it's going to look like, right? Or I decide for this month, this is what it's going to look like for me. Right? If you can't get on board, right? But you keep trying different solutions until you really find what works for you. What works for your relationship, maybe those things coincide with each other, maybe they don't. But having this conversation has to be one, where you are able to demonstrate an extraordinary amount of patience, because for most of the listeners, this is a huge shift in your relationship. And so we want to give it the time that it needs.

Mary Wagstaff: 52:04

Yeah, and I and I wanted, I love all of that it's so powerful to just make that intention. Like we're not making any right big decisions. Right now. We're just kind of having this conversation. So starting with intention from your heart, and reminding yourself, you're on the same team, right? That's what we always do the program. But thinking about and I to I talk to my clients about this personally to like, this can just be about growth and change. And you know, when you say you first get together, when you're in your teens or your 20s, like, there's so many parts about your relationship that changes, you become homeowners, you become business owners, you become parents, right. So in my perspective, although, you know, alcohol is prolific, and that's why we have to do the belief work about it. But alcohol really is no different. It is a process of maturation. And an I noticed for a lot of people, that is what happens, it's like it just doesn't work in the same way for our lifestyle anymore. Right. And the crux is that it's very habit forming and addictive. So you know, it can be hard to change. But looking at it from that perspective, too. It's just like budgeting, like we don't want to spend the same way we used to, right, we don't want to, you know, parent the same way we used to what we want to change our intimacy, all of those things is really an opportunity to go deeper, instead of it being a problem. Yeah. Yeah. So. Okay, I have just thrilled about this conversation. Thank you so much. I want would love for you to let the listeners know, you know, the couple the ways that they can work with you. And of course, we'll put all the links in the show notes. But tell us about your magical offerings.

Unknown: 53:45

Yes. So there are multiple ways to work with me. So I work privately one on one coaching with couples or with women, right? If you want private coaching just for yourself or with your partner, we can absolutely do that. And then the program that we've been mentioning is called the marriage upgrade. And that is a couple's group program as well. So those are the ways that you can work with me, the way to like start that conversation is just to schedule a complimentary consultation, we will talk I'll hear what's happening, I'll share with you exactly how I would support you. And we'll go from there. All of that is on my website, Dr. shavon.com, which I know they will link in the show notes here. And you'll also find on my website, the link to my podcast, which is called Love marriage, again, which you can find a wealth of information on just navigating so many different topics in marriage and within your own personal growth and evolution. Yeah,

Mary Wagstaff: 54:45

so good. I couldn't recommend Dr. Shavon. And her work more it helps Matthew and I, through such a big moment in our lives of transformation of moving and figuring out what we want to do next in our lives. And it's just been so powerful to bring what could be a problem to the forefront of our mind with the intention of the heart and letting using it as a portal for transformation and growth. And like the the title is the marriage upgrade. So taking our relationship to the next level like now it can only get better than it ever was. And that is so true for this work. And all of it like you're just meeting yourself at a new place. So, love it. Thank you so much, Dr. Shavon for all of your work and all of your beautiful light into the world.

Unknown: 55:32

Thank you, Mary. Thank you so much.

Mary Wagstaff: 55:35

Thanks for listening